We were discussing about realization by the brain cells. Let me share with you my understanding about it from where you left. What is this consciousness which, you say, is going to realize and not the brain cells? Isn't it made up of the contents which thought has created and put there? Without thought there won't be any consciousness. And this consciousness is the creation of thought which arises from memory held in the brain cells. So, the realization has to be at the level of the brain cells where all memories of past experiences are stored. From these memories thought arises and feeds the consciousness and then it emerges from it. So, the whole consciousness is caught up in time, and operates within the field of time which is a vicious circle. Now, any effort that the consciousness makes to free itself of itself only strengthens consciousness. This realization that 'I' or the 'me' or brain cells/consciousness, can do nothing to get out of this vicious circle is very important. This realization or the 'seeing' is the insight; and the timeless energy of this insight alone can free consciousness from time. I would like to know what you think about it.
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This consciousness ‘that is going to realize’ is not the brain-cells.
The consciousness that is going to realize’ is not the brain-cells. It isn’t made up of contents which thought has created and put there. Thought is dead matter and can never ‘create’ consciousness which is a living cause where-in thought is a secondary movement in a pattern depending totally upon memory only. The memory, that imposes upon the experiences, an assumed continuity and sequence in imagined ‘time’.
Vedanta deals with this squarely.
(And let me say “Vedanta is not a philosophy or pattern of thinking or thought-process, nor a ‘method’ but only a ‘tool’ of ‘Self-inquiry’.
The 6 such tools are : सांख्य,
sāṃkhya, मीमांसा, mīmāṃsā, न्याय, nyāya, वैशेषिक, vaiśeṣika, योग, yoga, and वेदान्त, vedānta,
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This ‘awareness’ is never the ‘personal’ though whatever is stored up in consciousness is the content of the consciousness itself.
Vedanta and other 5 ‘tools’ of the spiritual or the existential quest maintain and agree that the only light and the source of light (Brahman) is the substratum (support) of the manifestation. This manifestation itself becomes the individual self and the world as is perceived by him. The quality of development of an organism decides how complicated or simple form is assumed by this perception in the individual.
Summarily the consciousness that is manifest in the individual is but the reflected light of the source of light (Brahman) which could not be given a name, nor could be grasped by senses, thought (intellect), or as ‘experience’.
Therefore J.Krishnamurti has to insist upon the ‘urgency’, the eagerness, the ‘maturity’ of mind.
This is my understanding.
This Awareness is but the 'Intelligence' with no distinctions of any kind.
The One whole Reality, but the word 'one' is again incapable of describing it correctly and satisfactorily.
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Thanks. But the consciousness as we know it can only know what is within it, it cannot know anything which is beyond it until it empties itself, without any effort of the consciousness. Whatever is said about something which is beyond our consciousness will be only an idea which if accepted will not be helpful for the emptying of consciousness. It’s very difficult to grasp this point. By repeating, “I am Brahman”, one doesn’t become Brahman. The self or the consciousness must come to an end for that ( Brahman or Truth whatever name you give to that state) to come into being, which is beyond the self. So, what is important is to understand the self and end the self without any effort of the self, and without any idea of something which is beyond the self.
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This is your view. I fully agree as you said : But the consciousness as we know it can only know what is within it, it cannot know anything which is beyond it … Vedanta doesn’t insist upon imagining or contemplating about what is ‘beyond’ consciousness. Vedanta rather gives a clue to empty this consciousness, even to discard it totally, unconditionally. This is instructed by ‘neti’-‘neti’. One can ask: Exactly what / who is to discard this? Such a one is instructed to inquire into the very nature of ‘I-thought’ itself. This very ‘I-thought’ is illusory and is unable to eradicate / root out itself. Rationally too that is impossible, because the one who inquires is itself the very ‘I-thought’. But it dissolves on its own, and no rules could be made, or speculation be done, ‘how’ and ‘when’ this happens. ‘I-thought’ can’t even bring about this transformation in itself. That is again a logical impossibility. Any effort results into its survival and strengthens it only.
--
This is where the instructions of Sri Ramana Maharshi and Sri Nisargadatta Maharaja are extremely helpful.
They both the same way to one who needs help and ready, even eager to listen what they say.
Maharaj suggests to stay in ‘I am’. In whatever way, either just bringing attention repeatedly upon this simple, bare fact. Or you can do repeat ‘I am’. Not like a mantra, but verbally to remind yourself of this fact and come upon this again and again. Some-one is also given a mantra to repeat as ‘practice’. Some day he becomes stable in this practice and can be mature enough to ask himself the Impossible Question:”Who am I?”
No general rules could be laid down.
This is why I sometimes think:
For some, Sri Ramana Maharshi and Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj is the only clue to the J.Krishnamurti-puzzle.
--
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This consciousness ‘that is going to realize’ is not the brain-cells.
The consciousness that is going to realize’ is not the brain-cells. It isn’t made up of contents which thought has created and put there. Thought is dead matter and can never ‘create’ consciousness which is a living cause where-in thought is a secondary movement in a pattern depending totally upon memory only. The memory, that imposes upon the experiences, an assumed continuity and sequence in imagined ‘time’.
Vedanta deals with this squarely.
(And let me say “Vedanta is not a philosophy or pattern of thinking or thought-process, nor a ‘method’ but only a ‘tool’ of ‘Self-inquiry’.
The 6 such tools are : सांख्य,
sāṃkhya, मीमांसा, mīmāṃsā, न्याय, nyāya, वैशेषिक, vaiśeṣika, योग, yoga, and वेदान्त, vedānta,
--
Vedanta is important because that gives us a direct platform to talk about the ‘Reality’, in terms of the existential quest.
J.Krishnamurti deliberately skips away all scriptures, because if one can attain the ‘Reality’ through scriptures, he doesn’t need J.Krishnamurti. And if one finds the scriptures of no help then J.Krishnamurti speaks directly about ‘what is’. In this ‘what is’ He deals with the consciousness that is synonymous of thought only. But He always emphasizes upon ‘attention’ and ‘awareness’ at the same time.This ‘awareness’ is never the ‘personal’ though whatever is stored up in consciousness is the content of the consciousness itself.
Vedanta and other 5 ‘tools’ of the spiritual or the existential quest maintain and agree that the only light and the source of light (Brahman) is the substratum (support) of the manifestation. This manifestation itself becomes the individual self and the world as is perceived by him. The quality of development of an organism decides how complicated or simple form is assumed by this perception in the individual.
Summarily the consciousness that is manifest in the individual is but the reflected light of the source of light (Brahman) which could not be given a name, nor could be grasped by senses, thought (intellect), or as ‘experience’.
Therefore J.Krishnamurti has to insist upon the ‘urgency’, the eagerness, the ‘maturity’ of mind.
This is my understanding.
This Awareness is but the 'Intelligence' with no distinctions of any kind.
The One whole Reality, but the word 'one' is again incapable of describing it correctly and satisfactorily.
--
Thanks. But the consciousness as we know it can only know what is within it, it cannot know anything which is beyond it until it empties itself, without any effort of the consciousness. Whatever is said about something which is beyond our consciousness will be only an idea which if accepted will not be helpful for the emptying of consciousness. It’s very difficult to grasp this point. By repeating, “I am Brahman”, one doesn’t become Brahman. The self or the consciousness must come to an end for that ( Brahman or Truth whatever name you give to that state) to come into being, which is beyond the self. So, what is important is to understand the self and end the self without any effort of the self, and without any idea of something which is beyond the self.
--
This is your view. I fully agree as you said : But the consciousness as we know it can only know what is within it, it cannot know anything which is beyond it … Vedanta doesn’t insist upon imagining or contemplating about what is ‘beyond’ consciousness. Vedanta rather gives a clue to empty this consciousness, even to discard it totally, unconditionally. This is instructed by ‘neti’-‘neti’. One can ask: Exactly what / who is to discard this? Such a one is instructed to inquire into the very nature of ‘I-thought’ itself. This very ‘I-thought’ is illusory and is unable to eradicate / root out itself. Rationally too that is impossible, because the one who inquires is itself the very ‘I-thought’. But it dissolves on its own, and no rules could be made, or speculation be done, ‘how’ and ‘when’ this happens. ‘I-thought’ can’t even bring about this transformation in itself. That is again a logical impossibility. Any effort results into its survival and strengthens it only.
--
This is where the instructions of Sri Ramana Maharshi and Sri Nisargadatta Maharaja are extremely helpful.
They both the same way to one who needs help and ready, even eager to listen what they say.
Maharaj suggests to stay in ‘I am’. In whatever way, either just bringing attention repeatedly upon this simple, bare fact. Or you can do repeat ‘I am’. Not like a mantra, but verbally to remind yourself of this fact and come upon this again and again. Some-one is also given a mantra to repeat as ‘practice’. Some day he becomes stable in this practice and can be mature enough to ask himself the Impossible Question:”Who am I?”
No general rules could be laid down.
This is why I sometimes think:
For some, Sri Ramana Maharshi and Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj is the only clue to the J.Krishnamurti-puzzle.
--
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