Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi :
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Talk 389.
April 6, 1937
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With regard to presents to Sri Bhagavan, He observed: Why do they
bring presents? Do I want them? Even if I refuse they thrust presents
on me. What for? If I accept them I must yield to their wishes. It is
like giving a bait to catch the fish. Is the angler anxious to feed the
fish? No, he is anxious to feed on the fish.
Swami Lokesananda, a sannyasi: What is meant by jnana ज्ञान and vijnana विज्ञान ?
M.: These words may mean differently according to the context.
Jnana ज्ञान = samanya jnana सामान्य ज्ञान or Pure consciousness शुद्ध बोध.
Vijnana विज्ञान = Visesha jnana विशेष ज्ञान. Visesha विशेष may be (1) लौकिक / भौतिक / material / worldly (relative knowledge); and
(2) transcendental (Self-Realisation) आत्मज्ञान .
Mind is necessary for visesha; it modifies the purity of absolute
consciousness. So vijnana represents intellect (बुद्धि) and the sheath (कोष)
composing it, i.e., relative knowledge. In that case jnana is common
(samanya) running through vijnana / विज्ञान, samjnana / संज्ञान, prajnana / प्रज्ञान, ajnana / अज्ञान,
mati / मति , dhirti / धृति - different modes of knowledge (vide: Aitareyopanishad / ऐतरेय उपनिषद् ,
Chapter 3) or jnana is paroksha / परोक्ष (hearsay) and vijnana is aparokska अपरोक्ष (immediate/direct)
(direct perception) as in jnana vijnana triptatma (ज्ञान-विज्ञान-तृप्तात्मा), one perfectly
content with jnana and vijnana.
D.: What is the relation between Brahman (ब्रह्म) and Isvara ईश्वर ?
M.: Brahman is called Isvara in relation to the world.
D.: Is it possible to speak to Isvara as Sri Ramakrishna did?
M.: When we can speak to each other why should we not speak to
Isvara in the same way?
D.: Then why does it not happen with us?
M.: It requires purity and strength of mind and practice in meditation.
D.: Does God become evident if the above conditions exist?
M.: Such manifestations are as real as your own reality. In other words,
when you identify yourself with the body as in jagrat जाग्रत you see gross
objects; when in subtle body or in mental plane as in svapna / स्वप्न, you
see objects equally subtle; in the absence of identification as in sushupti सुषुप्ति / deep sleep you see nothing. The objects seen bear a relation to the state of the seer.
The same applies to visions of God.
By long practice the figure of God, as meditated upon, appears in dream and may later appear in jagrat also.
D.: Is that the state of God-realisation?
M.: Listen to what happened once, years ago.
There was a saint by name Namdev / नामदेव . He could see, talk and play
with Vithoba as we do with one another. He used to spend most of
his time in the temple playing with Vithoba.
On one occasion the saints had assembled together, among whom was
one Jnandev ज्ञानदेव / ज्ञानेश्वर of well-established fame and eminence.
Jnandev / ज्ञानदेव / ज्ञानेश्वर asked Gora Kumbhar / गोरा कुंभार (a potter-saint) to use his proficiency in testing the soundness of baked pots and find out which of the assembled saints was properly baked clay. So Gora Kumbhar took his stick and gently struck each one’s head in joke as if to test. When he came to Namdev / नामदेव, the latter protested in a huff; all laughed and hooted. Namdev /नामदेव was enraged and he sought Vithoba / विठोबा in the temple. Vithoba / विठोबा said that the
saints knew best; this unexpected reply upset Namdev नामदेव all the more.
He said: You are God (भगवान). I converse and play with you. Can there be anything more to be gained by man?
Vithoba / विठोबा persisted: The saints know.
Namdev / नामदेव : Tell me if there is anything more real than you.
Vithoba: We have been so familiar with each other that my advice
will not have the desired effect on you. Seek the beggar-saint in
the forest and know the truth.
Accordingly Namdev sought out the particular saint mentioned
by Vithoba. Namdev was not impressed with the holiness of the
man for he was nude, dirty and was lying on the floor with his feet
resting on a linga.
Namdev wondered how this could be a saint. The saint, on the
other hand, smiled on Namdev and asked, “Did Vithoba send you
here?” This was a great surprise to Namdev who was now more
inclined to believe the man to be great.
So Namdev asked him: “You are said to be a saint, why do you
desecrate the linga?” The saint replied. “Indeed I am too old and
weak to do the right thing. Please lift my feet and place them where
there is no linga.” Namdev accordingly lifted the saint’s feet and
placed them elsewhere. But there was again a linga below them.
Wherever the feet were placed then and there appeared a linga
underneath. Namdev finally placed the feet on himself and he turned
into a linga. Then Namdev understood that God was immanent and
learnt the truth and departed. He went home and did not go to the
temple for several days. Vithoba now sought him out in his home
and asked why Namdev would not go to the temple to see God.
Namdev said: “Is there a place where He is not?”
The moral of the story is clear. Visions of God have their place
below the plane of Self-Realisation.
--
--
Talk 389.
April 6, 1937
***********
With regard to presents to Sri Bhagavan, He observed: Why do they
bring presents? Do I want them? Even if I refuse they thrust presents
on me. What for? If I accept them I must yield to their wishes. It is
like giving a bait to catch the fish. Is the angler anxious to feed the
fish? No, he is anxious to feed on the fish.
Swami Lokesananda, a sannyasi: What is meant by jnana ज्ञान and vijnana विज्ञान ?
M.: These words may mean differently according to the context.
Jnana ज्ञान = samanya jnana सामान्य ज्ञान or Pure consciousness शुद्ध बोध.
Vijnana विज्ञान = Visesha jnana विशेष ज्ञान. Visesha विशेष may be (1) लौकिक / भौतिक / material / worldly (relative knowledge); and
(2) transcendental (Self-Realisation) आत्मज्ञान .
Mind is necessary for visesha; it modifies the purity of absolute
consciousness. So vijnana represents intellect (बुद्धि) and the sheath (कोष)
composing it, i.e., relative knowledge. In that case jnana is common
(samanya) running through vijnana / विज्ञान, samjnana / संज्ञान, prajnana / प्रज्ञान, ajnana / अज्ञान,
mati / मति , dhirti / धृति - different modes of knowledge (vide: Aitareyopanishad / ऐतरेय उपनिषद् ,
Chapter 3) or jnana is paroksha / परोक्ष (hearsay) and vijnana is aparokska अपरोक्ष (immediate/direct)
(direct perception) as in jnana vijnana triptatma (ज्ञान-विज्ञान-तृप्तात्मा), one perfectly
content with jnana and vijnana.
D.: What is the relation between Brahman (ब्रह्म) and Isvara ईश्वर ?
M.: Brahman is called Isvara in relation to the world.
D.: Is it possible to speak to Isvara as Sri Ramakrishna did?
M.: When we can speak to each other why should we not speak to
Isvara in the same way?
D.: Then why does it not happen with us?
M.: It requires purity and strength of mind and practice in meditation.
D.: Does God become evident if the above conditions exist?
M.: Such manifestations are as real as your own reality. In other words,
when you identify yourself with the body as in jagrat जाग्रत you see gross
objects; when in subtle body or in mental plane as in svapna / स्वप्न, you
see objects equally subtle; in the absence of identification as in sushupti सुषुप्ति / deep sleep you see nothing. The objects seen bear a relation to the state of the seer.
The same applies to visions of God.
By long practice the figure of God, as meditated upon, appears in dream and may later appear in jagrat also.
D.: Is that the state of God-realisation?
M.: Listen to what happened once, years ago.
There was a saint by name Namdev / नामदेव . He could see, talk and play
with Vithoba as we do with one another. He used to spend most of
his time in the temple playing with Vithoba.
On one occasion the saints had assembled together, among whom was
one Jnandev ज्ञानदेव / ज्ञानेश्वर of well-established fame and eminence.
Jnandev / ज्ञानदेव / ज्ञानेश्वर asked Gora Kumbhar / गोरा कुंभार (a potter-saint) to use his proficiency in testing the soundness of baked pots and find out which of the assembled saints was properly baked clay. So Gora Kumbhar took his stick and gently struck each one’s head in joke as if to test. When he came to Namdev / नामदेव, the latter protested in a huff; all laughed and hooted. Namdev /नामदेव was enraged and he sought Vithoba / विठोबा in the temple. Vithoba / विठोबा said that the
saints knew best; this unexpected reply upset Namdev नामदेव all the more.
He said: You are God (भगवान). I converse and play with you. Can there be anything more to be gained by man?
Vithoba / विठोबा persisted: The saints know.
Namdev / नामदेव : Tell me if there is anything more real than you.
Vithoba: We have been so familiar with each other that my advice
will not have the desired effect on you. Seek the beggar-saint in
the forest and know the truth.
Accordingly Namdev sought out the particular saint mentioned
by Vithoba. Namdev was not impressed with the holiness of the
man for he was nude, dirty and was lying on the floor with his feet
resting on a linga.
Namdev wondered how this could be a saint. The saint, on the
other hand, smiled on Namdev and asked, “Did Vithoba send you
here?” This was a great surprise to Namdev who was now more
inclined to believe the man to be great.
So Namdev asked him: “You are said to be a saint, why do you
desecrate the linga?” The saint replied. “Indeed I am too old and
weak to do the right thing. Please lift my feet and place them where
there is no linga.” Namdev accordingly lifted the saint’s feet and
placed them elsewhere. But there was again a linga below them.
Wherever the feet were placed then and there appeared a linga
underneath. Namdev finally placed the feet on himself and he turned
into a linga. Then Namdev understood that God was immanent and
learnt the truth and departed. He went home and did not go to the
temple for several days. Vithoba now sought him out in his home
and asked why Namdev would not go to the temple to see God.
Namdev said: “Is there a place where He is not?”
The moral of the story is clear. Visions of God have their place
below the plane of Self-Realisation.
--
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